Patek Philippe

INTRODUCTION With recent threads describing the difficulties of purchasing a P atek watch, I reached out and had an informal chat with Patek management to understand more about their objectives and policies . Perhaps some of the bad feelings experienced b...  

...what about asking a customer to purchase a Patek they don't really want to get the Patek watch they actually want?

I do not have all the answers but have made some suggestions on improvement for more fair allocation policies. What do you suggest ?

...so I can see them asking about a customer's history with buying Patek in the past. But I am totally against the practice of 'You may want to consider a Calatrava or two before you can have the perpetual you really want.'

should do to ensure the ADs to perform more fairly. Thoughts 🤔?

I would need $2million in Patek purchases before Patek would grant me the honor of purchasing a minute repeater. What garbage!

A good friend wanted a limited Lange piece last year or so. He'd already purchased 2 or 3 'normal' Langes and 2 or 3 very pricey special Langes. They told him to buy another Lange he didn't want nor need in order to be considered. Really put him off. He's... 

a relationship with the AD on previous Patek purchases ?

Why buy lower end Pateks when their quality has declined even as production numbers have skyrocketed?

did you take your interest to ?

Did you ever end up getting a Patek ?

I think if you remove the Patek name from most of their low and mid offerings, they wouldn't do well at all. For the minute repeaters, as I mentioned elsewhere, my wofe has perfect pitch, so we would have to see the specific watch (they vary!) before comm... 

...but it's complicated. I recommended him to them and he bought many special pieces including a rattrapante and multiple PCs. That AD has since lost their Patek status so he is now dealing with someone else. Also the above should say "He's NOW thinking a... 

...and someone wants to buy it, I believe it should be sold. Perhaps they can put terms on the sale (if supported by local consumer law) like Ford did with the GT to mitigate flipping. But I agree that it is a tough issue and I am often wrong : )

I have taken my custom elsewhere and enjoying such a refreshing and pleasant experience with Ferrier, Moser and Parmagiani.

We know how difficult it is, nowadays to establish a new relationship with a new AD. How can they take care of existing clients who were abandoned? Should they give the names of those to another nearby AD and asked that the AD take care of them? PS: I’m o... 

My friend was in the same situation. He was introduced to another AD in his location. Starting a new relationship with an AD is always challenging. Other suggestions ?

and the new AD hopefully can build a long term relationship.

Just teasing you...I know it's pointless to ask any further questions or provide any suggestions. When I called the NY Salon, the first question the sales asked was, "Do you have 10 or more PPs? We have so many customers and we like to see each customer i... 

something is really wrong with the policies and practices at that AD. Such unfair behavior needs to be reported to Patek for corrective actions.

just teasing I agree is 100% BS. They don't want just money but status. To be an object that money can't buy. There also many collectors with a box full of nautilus or aquanaut sourced in the grey market

before buying something new else is (even more) madness !

You don’t need more and everyone still loves you Best Gatsby

I realized just today how ill disciplined I’ve become. There are really some gems out there with uncovering and so I will continue to buy but (with some help, determination and discipline) at a much slower pace. Quality over quantity.. Best Gatsby

which part(s) you do not believe it and why. Also I would appreciate if you could reply in a more friendly way such as “I strongly disagree because …”. Would this way of engagement be possible ?

Anybody personally. We all know how things work in this world. What is the point of this letter? I don’t believe he is sincere. That is all.

Problems arise when there are mismatches between demand and supply. I understand that Patek is its own storied institution, steeped in tradition, and that I have absolutely no right to tell them what to do, but any junior economist will tell you that prob... 

...there may be quite a few luxury watches from all brands suddenly available.

But bad times will hit the non hyped models much harder than the usual suspects. I would love for the market to soften enough so I can pick up a 39mm Dato at a reasonable price. I have some hope as it isn't a CB or a Nautilus...

As Patek is a family business being operated for the long term, IMO the need to have a good balance in selling different products is important. Since "business casual" is now popular, having more casual Calatrava watches is befitting of the times and groo... 

….a sale is a sale, right ;-)

caught for working with such loyal flippers. Could be game over then ☠️ for that AD

his key messages

Thierry hits the crux of the benefit and dilemma succinctly: “sustained demand which we cannot satisfy”.ADs are basically in an untenable situation - Very limited supply and both existing and potentially new clients clamoring to buy a Patek. Clearly Thier... 

Many salespeople from various ADs have told me how difficult and challenging their jobs have become :-( Saying "no" and/or "sorry" is/are against the nature of being in sales. I am glad that this post has generated some great discussions and suggestions.

It’s just now it’s so much more amplified. ADs have always done this. I was once told to buy an omega, JLC and a panerai in order to get a 5711. In retrospect it was a good deal. Or, how many datejusts did one have to buy to get a SS Daytona? Before pande... 

meant from a financial perspective, correct ? The "bundling" of other brands is exactly what Patek will not tolerate based on TS's letter. Patekova described above that Patek wanting a collector to build a relationship starting with less desirable piece(s... 

Lucky my experiences with Ad are great, every time visiting are alway enjoyable. I am on the side of Patek for their policy.

I understand and appreciate Patek's allocation system and policies. The key issue here is how to assist the ADs to be more fair.

If no flippers, PP would not be where they are today with the astronomical prices they fetch at auctions. It a flippers market at auction… a watch that is sold less than 8-5years can end up in auction houses, no different frm so call flippers as they can ... 

That’s a good point. My thoughts are you shouldn’t be left in the lurch when your AD loses the relationship. You should be invited to shop at the nearest AD and your interest list and purchased piece history should carry over to the next. Like with Ferrar... 

If you were in line for a piece you want at your AD and someone else got the piece instead because their AD in the next town over closed? Every policy has winners and losers...

what you are saying but you shouldn’t just start from scratch and have no communication at all. Even an invitation to enquire elsewhere would have been nice, but nothing. For what its worth, before I moved elsewhere I was told I would not accepted at anot... 

There seems to be no easy solution. Perhaps Patek could direct or prioritise the allocations for the "refuge AD" for orphaned collectors...

If PP was to direct or prioritize it could help the situation. With all of the ADs being cut there must be some slack

Rolex ? If you multi-brand AD used bundling, then this method could be the reason for it to lose it license unfortunately.

so that if your customers who had bought the Patek piece a few years back could upgrade from say 5205 to 5320 or 5270 just like how a Porsche customer could upgrade from say 718 to 911. It keeps the piece within the local AD and rewards the customer for t... 

Any thoughts on this issue ?

Then auction prices will get even higher, surely? Because more Nautiluses are sold directly to keepers, there will be fewer on the market so auctions will be bid up even more...

As Patekova wrote above, he believes that "Being required to build a relationship by buying presumably lesser desired Pateks before getting the more highly desired ones, is not considered bundling. Nor apparently is it discouraged. It is also understandab... 

Here’s a link to a story I’m sure most of you know already regarding a lawsuit filed against an AD for asking their client to buy “other” watches or jewelry before client is allocated a Nautilus model. I understand the importance of having several Patek ... 

If someone has no history of buying Patek watches but wants a MR which other big customers have been waiting for a while, AD simply will not entertain the request.

Wow! I wonder if there are any updates to the lawsuit filed. If ruled in favor of your friend then this case will have precedence for other lawsuits in the future against ADs bundling purchases.

…but this was his AD…

Probably saved the AD who is building a brand new Rolex boutique in Stanford Mall / Palo Alto some embarrassment

They definitely have the clout. Certainly would improve interactions with their collectors regarding how/when purchases occur. Also, the after sales experience would be streamlined for all parties.

They should employ that approach everywhere and phase out ADs.

retail network does not fit its strategy. Although it has 5 (I believe) self-owned Salons and Maisons (Geneva, London, Paris, Beijing and Shanghai), Patek wants to remain mostly a manufacturer as explained in my post.

With this action, Patek would instantly get rid of flippers, investors and all the other sneaky behaviors that affect the brand's reputation.

I am since 6 years on the waiting list for an Aquanaut. When I ordered it, I was asked, if I know the value of the watch on the second hand market, I was really wondering that they put my name on the list. Three years later I was asked to buy some three h... 

I mean, after six years you accepted to be treated like that? Seriously?

free market and consumers should buy what they want. Did you end up buying any Patek three hand watches ?

be taken away from other lines then. Patek will quickly become a one horse pony which might not be wise from a long term business perspective. What will Patek do when that time arrives ? Due to its huge success with Royal Oak, AP several years ago created... 

A variety of comments above but I just wanted to say thank you for an interesting and informative post.

all worthwhile for me to do the research and for the hours spent to write this post !

I don't play these games. No bundling, no waiting lists, no allocations, no premium. Never. I do things in my work and life that are far more important (don't want to seem pretentious because really I'm not, it's just a fact, a watch is only a watch) than... 

your own decisions ! It is a free world after all.

Because it seems there is sanctioned “blackmail” if it’s Patek’s own products of buying a Calatrava, complications, etc. to get an aquanaut or nautilus. I also don’t think there’s anything wrong with that too—it’s just the word they use. And I can see why... 

coerce or force might be better ? As Patekova wrote in his reply, he thinks "Being required to build a relationship by buying presumably lesser desired Pateks before getting the more highly desired ones, is not considered bundling. Nor apparently is it di... 

I think it makes sense. There’s a finite amount of pieces and do you allocate to someone who has purchases several watches or no watches. I don’t feel someone has a “right” to buy an aquanaut or nautilus or whatever — so long as there’s not some unlawful ... 

to spend his/her own money. As I mentioned above, it is a free society as far as horology is concerned.

I believe Mr Stern is sincere in his letter and I also believe he is an astute businessman. The AD I most frequently visit is a Rolex and Patek authorized establishment. Over the years he has never asked for or even hinted that I buy something as a preclu... 

spend our money the way we wish. Glad to hear that your AD has never asked you to buy pieces that you did not want. Trust that you have a great relationship with this AD and you get what you want.

I understand that some Patek Philippe models, such as the Nautilus and Aquanaut, are in high demand and that there is a supply-and-demand situation to consider. However, I'm not sure how much it would help the client who has lost trust in the brand. Altho... 

IMO Patek has the ability to guide the ADs to improve performance. Us as individual Patek collectors and together as a Patek collector community, we can provide useful suggestions (which what this thread is about) to assist Patek. The various replies abov... 

I absolutely hate the new world we all live in today for so many reasons. My beloved hobby of horology has all but been ruined by the new money supposed watch enthusiasts. Those that know me know I speak my mind. As an old school collector who started col... 

is what our forum members want to read. Given your enjoyable journey and understanding of the dynamics between Patek and ADs, can you please provide suggestions on how Patek can better guide ADs to be more fair and create a win-win-win situation for all t... 

Correct that the members here want to read honest posts like mine. The lack of response speak volumes I’m afraid. However I will always be honest and not be worried about upsetting anyone else. To answer your question what can Patek do to improve the rela... 

TS and Patek do a lot - just alone keeping the rare handcrafts alive can’t be a high margin business and must lose money. Same with the amazing exhibitions that are FREE every other year. Remember to do all that including the upkeep of this amazing museum... 

That Patek do so much to give back to its collectors and clients and spend a vast amount of money keeping their Arts alive which is admirable and I am so pleased they do. However I can’t help but feel a bit let down and disappointed about who they sell wa... 

but what would you like them do? I am just honestly curious how your ideal process would be like? How can they possible choose a certain type of collector exclusively ? Or am I misunderstanding you ?

X

Knowing you for many years even way back when I first started out- remember me and the I had my grail PPDRSD from Dr Ed and my you helped me contact your good friend Jed and helped me there too 😎. I loved your passion and that you never sought or bought a... 

Comments like that is what makes it all worth while. I do remember you so lovely to hear from you. I hope your journey has been enjoyable and still is. Dr Ed….. what a Gent he was also always had time for people and never wanted anything back. Do you stil... 

Mostly in a combination with (higher margin) jewellery. So looking to the future I would say, finally!

But I agree, bundle sales tend to go on as long as the other (in)direct commercial interests of the AD (selling jewellery and other trademarks than PP) remain.

...zeitwerk or datograph. i find that really funny since i bought my odysseus WG unworn brand-new for 12K euros under list:: )) i guess there will be argon awakening sooner or later for those companies.

satisfy our needs.

The RO company will be fine. Lange on the other hand is in for a rude awakening haha. I have no problem with brands asking their clients to buy sh1t items from their own brand, but patek letting Ad do their thing and blackmail clients into buying jeweller... 

report to Patek

I buy my Patek mostly from an AD and my AD never hinted to bundle or buy other brands to get a Patek. It's a good thing my taste spans across their model lines and I felt ecstatic receiving my 5270P just the same way I received my 5740. I can imagine my A... 

your AD does not request “bundling” of any sort !👍 Please create posts for your Pateks 😃

My AD doesn't explicitly tell me about the bundling but they probably won't call me for a sport Patek if I don't ever buy a less popular model.

by PP is usually based on economic considerations like location (they only want prime locations in the various cities), negotiations with chains like wempe, bucherer etc. on where to best position PP, concentration avoidance (does not apply to hongkong fo... 

put him in the penalty box.

But reading all the responses below it seems nothing is solved and there is no answer to the solution the market HOWEVER…is resolving itself. When the majority of the market wants a steel Patek the price gets overheated, as Greenspan puts it, irrational e... 

Patek should make their other watches (non aquanaut and nautilus) more desirable. I like the new modern Calatrava, but not at its price point. Make a calatrava I can submerge in water without ruining it (not necessarily a sports watch diver) and make the ... 

referring to in terms of being tempted at $25k ??

I was referring to the 6007 with its various colors. All I am saying is that the idea that a company has to force people to buy product they are not interested in just to get what they are interested in is absurd and reflects poorly on the company. I don’... 

This reference with colorful hands, markers and stitching is expanding the Calatrava line to become more stylish and sporty. I hear and understand about your concerns, and appreciate your comments. To me, assuming that only a small % of yearly production ... 

Thank you for help clearing doubts we all have. I’m sure you talked to the right people as the replies are along the same line I got. But I think the letter should have stated the “consequences” they will face if they don’t abide by Patek’s rule… and do i... 

my understanding is similar to you understanding. What other watch(es) did you get from Geneva this time ?

Of the mere mortals with Mr Stern ? Such as ADs closing down and collectors not having another new AD to purchase from after their AD gets shut down.

Patek is fully aware of this post and the replies/suggestions provided by our forum members. On this particular matter Cluess_Collector and you commented on, I specifically highlighted this issue with Patek, amongst other feedback. Hopefully the situation... 

But I was curious if cbb has any insights since she seems to have a close relationship with Mr Stern. If that’s something that can’t be shared publicly no problem.

I only know that Patek wants to be fair to everyone and is truly upset ad “add-on” sale

PP should really reign in the practices of their ADs. for example, a germain chain of ADs advertises currently available (non-sports) PP models on their webpage. when i called they told me that those models were really available (at least they don't lie t... 

calatrava, ellipse, WTs and/or perpetual calendar pieces ? If they offer you a watch that you want at retail, would you not buy from them ?

i don't live in the EC, so i am entitled to VAT refunds when i export pieces. i would not buy if i don't get the tax back (19%!).

be more expensive than where you live ?

German AD at retail price (without VAT refund) seems worthwhile. Naturally you as the consumer make your own decision.

in fact it is a bit like blackmail......if you insist on the tax return we won't sell to you (because then we cannot keep up the charade of pretending with PP to sell to local clients only......).

I believe you can do this at the airport when you are departing and not involve the AD. I did this a few years ago after buying an Omega in Zermatt… I did the paperwork in Geneva at the airport on my way home… got the refund a few weeks later (refund appl... 

which is to focus on its R&D, design and production while delegating distribution of their watches to their retailers (except for those application pieces). Nevertheless, Patek has constant communication with them to ensure their watches will go to th... 

members are also what Patek needs so that the allocation policies can be improved !💪

It's very popular with a ton of luxury brands now, but personally it makes things less fun for me and as a result I've pivoted spend away from any of the big brands. I still want a few PPs like a Worldtimer, but will just buy those used as they go for bel... 

it seems that all PP except naut/aqua go below retail.

very good values in the secondary market. Let us know when you get something you like !

see your wrist shots soon ! 😃